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Episode 19  |  43:10 min

Small Business Marketing: Golf Edition (with Leo Rooney, Director of Performance at Urban Golf Performance)

Episode 19  |  43:10 min  |  01.27.2021

Small Business Marketing: Golf Edition (with Leo Rooney, Director of Performance at Urban Golf Performance)

This is a podcast episode titled, Small Business Marketing: Golf Edition (with Leo Rooney, Director of Performance at Urban Golf Performance). The summary for this episode is: The primary goal for any podcast should be to build community, and today’s guest knows all about that. In this episode of Lights, Camera, Grow, we chat with Leo Rooney, Director of Performance at LA-based Urban Golf Performance, and co-host of the successful Urban Golf Podcast.

The primary goal for any podcast should be to build community, and today’s guest knows all about that.

In this episode of Lights, Camera, Grow, we chat with Leo Rooney, Director of Performance at LA-based Urban Golf Performance, and co-host of the successful Urban Golf Podcast.

Fascinatingly, Urban Golf Podcast wasn’t created to serve a marketing purpose. Instead, the format of the podcast imitates the in-depth conversations that occur when you’re playing a quick 9 holes with an interesting golf partner.

Rooney shared UGP’s podcasting journey, and how the podcast benefits his brand:

  • Taking a DIY “nerdy” approach to starting their branded podcast
  • Bringing golf-curious listeners into the sport (and creating new potential clients)
  • Strengthening internal culture
  • Recruiting top-notch employees by reaching college golf coaches, who can then suggest UGP to graduating golfers as an employment opportunity
  • Building credibility, authority and thought leadership for UGP
  • Appealing to a niche audience rather than targeting the masses


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Leo Rooney
Director of Performance at LA-based Urban Golf Performance

Speaker 1: What's up guys and welcome to the Tobe Agency podcast network. We just launched our third show called Entrepreneurship Sucks posted by Andrew Hong CEO of Tobe Agency. If you've ever wondered what the not so obvious personal challenges of being an entrepreneur are, you should definitely check out this insightful podcast. You can also listen to new episodes every other Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and content like this head over to tobyagency. co/ podcast.

Leo Rooney: It's really, hasn't been about like, " Oh, let's market the brand, or use this as a way to market to new clients." So we did the podcast more to have fun, and to connect with other interesting people that we had in our network, but then also some people outside of our network. So, we didn't know Sean Foley or Chris Como or Cameron McCormick, or the top golf coaches of the world. And the podcast was a great way to connect with them.

Jared: That's Leo Rooney, co- founder and Director of Performance at Urban Golf Performance. On this episode, we sit down and talk to Leo about how Urban Golf Performance has changed the way to think about sports performance training and coaching and how the podcast they started for fun has now become a community builder by adding value. This is Lights, Camera, Grow. What's going on guys? Welcome back to the Lights, Camera, Grow Podcast. My name is Jared. I'm here with Andrew and today we have Leo Rooney from Urban Golf Performance. Welcome to the show, Leo.

Leo Rooney: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Jared: Yeah, thanks for taking some time to chat with us today. So Leo is the Director of Performance at Urban Golf Performance. A lot of performance going on there. Leo is also the co- host of the Urban Golf Podcast, that's huge GPS branded podcasts, which focuses on golf business, life and kind of everything in between as we've heard from it. And actually I'm going to let Andrew take that away because I actually don't golf. So I'm the worst person in the room to talk about it. Yeah. Why don't you tell the audience what a golf performance actually is-

Andrew Hong: Yeah. So Leo, I'm actually a student at UGP and we kind of met through a mutual friend Lee, so shout out to Lee, if you're listening out there.

Leo Rooney: That's right.

Andrew Hong: But UGP to me, I kind of consider it, after meeting all the coaches at UGP, it's sort of seen as the next level of golf coaching, right? Sometimes you go to a driving range and there's that pro there, that all he does is kind of work with you on that with your game on the range. But I think what UGP does is that you guys kind of focus on all aspects of the game and we know how hard this game is, right? So it's not just about the golf swing, it's about fitness, recovery equipment and club building. And obviously the mental part of the game, whether you're a pro or an amateur is a pretty big part of it.

Jared: Nutrition as well, I imagine.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. There's some of that, yeah. But that's part of the fitness, I think. Yeah. So I don't know, Leo, is that a good description of like who you guys are and kind of what you guys do?

Leo Rooney: Yeah. I mean, look, there's a lot of moving parts, but it's kind of like mixing Equinox with four seasons with the Stanford college team. So imagine joining the Stanford men's golf team or women's golf team, and you have a whole team behind you, helping you out, you have the resources and the buildings and the courses and everything, kind of at your disposal. And so it's a very unique way to get introduced to golf performance. Because you have a coach, you have a trainer, you have a physical therapist, you have a club fitter, you have a builder, you have a mental coach, all in one place. So it's very convenient. And then we make it all about the client. We care a lot about the experience, from the second you pull up into the parking lot you are going to feel different. We want to make you feel different. It's really about the experience throughout the whole time you're there. So they should feel like you're going to this golf performance oasis in the middle of the city and kind of you get away from the normal busy life and you meet this incredible team. I mean, we have three locations now in here in Southern California and I'm very biased, but I really believe that we have the best golf performance team in the world. And so we focus a lot on hospitality and taking care of our clients.

Andrew Hong: Yeah, that's great. I think I've taken some golf lessons here and there in the past and the way you kind of described the experiences, sort of exactly what I've sort of felt, right? I go to the one in Sepulveda and the West LA location and you're right, it is kind of an Oasis away from LA, even just driving through the gates of that little compound you have there.

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: And as you go into the hitting days, it kind of, with all the track men and everything kind of lined up, it definitely feels like you're stepping outside of the city. That's a really interesting description. How would you describe-

Leo Rooney: Yeah and I think-

Andrew Hong: Yeah, go ahead.

Leo Rooney: No, I was just going to add there, the first assessment is usually kind of what we're known for in the hallmark is, we sit down with each player and we ask them, " Why do you play golf?" And it's not just like, " Oh, because I think it's fun." It's like, " Why do you actually play golf? What is the deeper reason why you even play the game?" And when you go deep in that question, you get to pretty cool places and you might have to ask why a couple of times. And so it's a... You really get that anywhere else. And then the next question might be like, " Why do you want to improve?" That seems like a trivial, obvious question, but actually it's not really. Sometimes you, you want to get better because you want to play with your son or beat your father- in- law or you don't want to look like an idiot going to Bel- Air Country Club, or-

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. Or, you have this social pressure from your buddy group or something like that. Everybody has different reasons. And when you get down to it, you get to this very intrinsic, motivating reason. And so we try and really get to the bottom of it. And from there, you can accomplish really cool things. But, I think people don't zoom out and think about, " Okay, why do I even play the game? Why do I want to improve?" Because it's just like, " Oh, I play golf and it's fun and whatever." But like, let's actually talk about it. And so that's what happens in the first session. And then we create a structured way for you to improve your game and we attack it from all angles so that you improve much faster.

Andrew Hong: It's funny that you mentioned that because when I went in for my assessment, I said, exactly that, " I want to play more golf with my dad." Right? It's the one sport that we can kind of play together and spend four or five hours together.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. That's awesome. And the second, the more motivating factor was, " He's got to stop beating me."

Andrew Hong: Yeah. But I mean, imagine how much more powerful that is, you know? And so every time you go in there, you're like, " I know why I'm doing this and I know why, I paid for the service." Because, that's an actual good reason. I don't want anybody to play golf because, they feel forced to have to because of work or this or that. We want to get you excited about the game, and that's why we, Mac Todd who started it, designed the facilities the way he designed. It's fun. The music is pumping. There's a vibe. It's very, very ungolf- like.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. That's right. My wife, for example, doesn't really like golf, but she loves to come to UGP and take a session with one of our coaches because it's fun and it's cool. Usually taking a lesson at some driving range is not very cool. It's pretty stuffy and it's not very exciting, unfortunately. So we're trying to really change that.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. I think in the age of like social media and just content and branded content, you're starting to see, I think that becomes kind of a gateway drug into golf. When you see the younger guys like Collin, right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: Who you guys have worked with, and you've got guys like Rickie Fowler who have been on the tour for a long time, but they kind of have this... There's a cultural element to like what they bring to the game for some of the younger players out there. And I think as you start looking at contents and more people are able to connect with the game in a different way, that might be outside of golf digest, or the typical ways anybody's been able to engage with the game. So you have cool YouTube channels, like Eric Lang and all those other guys who are taking a different approach to shedding some light on the game. I think golf has always, it's always finding people to play the game, has always been a challenge for golf. And it's always been about getting younger generations into it. Right? And even Jared is like, " I don't play golf." And maybe there's sometimes this psychological barrier to entry because you-

Leo Rooney: No, no. It totally has been like that.

Andrew Hong: You got to wear a polo shirt and dress well on the course-

Leo Rooney: Yeah. It was never my crosstalk.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. But I think now, I think it's loosening up a little bit. I think companies like UGP are a good example of that-

Leo Rooney: Yeah. Because, it's not only pushing... It's pushing you guys into a different category, but it's pushing the sport forward. Right? And it's energizing it in a different fashion. Eventually somebody is going to come to UGP as a kid, right? And then end up on the tour and be a hit. And then, that's going to be the LeBron James version of a golfer or whatnot. Right? It's going to be, Tiger Woods obviously he broke the mold on a lot of things, but what's the next level of that? And it could be created in a fashion like this. Yeah.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. What I love about UGP like you mentioned there, we've helped Collin Morikawa who has won three times now and won the major earlier this year. But, we also work with complete beginners and we train the UCLA men's golf team. There's a whole range. What we've seen in the pandemic here is that golf is just taking off. And you have beginners that are just taking up the game, that you never thought would play golf. In our new locations, we have the son of a really prominent president and from a different country, for example. You see this person and there's like, no way that this person would have taken up golf if it weren't for his buddy who has been coming in. And it was like, " Hey, I know you've never thought about golf, but, this place is cool. You should try it out." And then he comes in and never touched a golf club before. And he gets new clubs and he gets on a program. And then, we have another guy who's a really famous actor that you'll never, ever think would play golf because of the movies that he's been in and directing. He's like in there three times a week, training and co... So there's this very interesting kind of trend where, and this is what Mac told me when I started and I never really believed them until later we went to like a restaurant, I don't mean, Bandera maybe, or something like that. And he was like, " Leo, everyone in this whole restaurant is a good client for UGP, a good client prospect." I was like, " Wow! 90% of them probably never played golf." And so it changed my whole perspective. And now I see it. Everyone is a client because UGP is not about targeting golfers.

Andrew Hong: That's right. Yeah.

Leo Rooney: Actually hardcore golfers are not necessarily-

Andrew Hong: Not the best-

Leo Rooney: The best clients.

Andrew Hong: Yeah, exactly. Right? Too much baggage they carry with them. Right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah. And they sometimes, they think they got it down and they have some coach somewhere. Yeah.

Andrew Hong: It's the beginner's mindset, right? That can be sometimes the most refreshing kind of student to have. Right? You just want to soak everything up as a sponge. They're willing to be coached. They want to listen. Right?

Leo Rooney: Exactly.

Andrew Hong: Cool. Well, let's talk a little bit about your podcast. Because that's actually in my journey to actually becoming a customer of UDP, the podcast was actually something that I touched along that journey. Right? I'm kind of curious. In our agency, we focus a lot on brands that do podcasts and are successful at it. Because we think that podcasting is kind of the blog 2. 0, if you would. Right? No one has time to read anymore. Everyone is on the go, we have broadband on our cell phones, so that we can stream anything from anywhere.

Jared: From the technical side search algorithms, the changing, like all the keywords don't matter anymore.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. Exactly. Right? So for me, I obviously knew Lee and I had a kind of a thought or some awareness about UGP. And then I found out that you guys had a podcast. Because I think I saw you guys brought on Sean Foley on there and then Doc Rivers was on there. I was like, " Wow, you guys are bringing on some pretty like celebrity kind of guests." They have some really interesting insights, not only about golf but life. I always kind of equate golf as kind of an analogy to life in a lot of ways in how difficult it is. Right? But I started listening to the podcast and I was like, " Man, I really like these guys' view, not just on golf, but just kind of on the world." And I'm like, " I want to reach out to them, learn more about them." Eventually I ended up becoming a customer. To me, that kind of is interest... I always use myself as an example when I'm being marketed to, because I am a marketer. Right? And I just saw that podcast as being just a really good content medium to learn more about who you are moreso than from your website or your sales brochures or whatever I've seen in the past, even talking to Lee. So, what actually gave you guys the inspiration, or maybe you just thought of it out of the blue to come up with a podcast and to start putting the effort into it?

Leo Rooney: Yeah. So, I had a podcast for about three years in college with my Swedish friend who we were on the golf team together. We were struck because there's a nine hour time difference to Sweden. So we were having to Skype our friends and family and we were like, what if we just record a podcast and they can just listen to it and it will be easier-

Andrew Hong: Oh, nice.

Jared: Oh, that's cool.

Andrew Hong: That's awesome.

Leo Rooney: For them to kind of stay in contact with them. And so that's how it started. And for some reason, I don't know how we did it, but right off the bat, we got this huge following. It's crazy to look back because we had like 12 to 14, 000 listeners in Sweden. And we did it in Swedish. We went to a Baptist school. And so a lot of the topics were like how it is to come from a secular background in Sweden to come to a Baptist school in America.

Andrew Hong: Sure. Yeah.

Leo Rooney: And that was like... I think we had a pretty young following. And so because of that, we just kept it going for three years and it was a lot of fun. And so I had some experience with podcasting and then me and Mac have always talked about it. And and we had this opportunity to get a go and we just we just started and it's really, hasn't been about like, " Oh, let's market the brand." Or, " Let's use this as a way to market to new clients." We are very lucky in that we don't need marketing for new clients. We have this. The way Mac created this whole brand was through word of mouth. And so we have this incredible, I don't know how to explain it. It's like we spend zero dollars on marketing and it's just based on people's experiences. At UGP, they send everyone they know. And so we can't hire fast enough because because the experience is just that good. So we did the podcast more to have fun, and to connect with other interesting people that we had in our network, but then also some people outside of our network. So, we didn't know Sean Foley or Chris Como or Cameron McCormick, or the top golf coaches of the world and the podcast was a great way to connect with them.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. For sure.

Leo Rooney: So the biggest value, honestly, so far has been that, we have this hour, hour and a half with someone that we might not know. And after the 90 minutes, we know them so well. We connect with them deeply. And that's just because we love talking about golf and life and business, and I think, the guests can feel that, and then a little tip, what we do after is we send this really nice gift package to them, just thanking them. And so, what that has done is all these top coaches or whatever other professionals, they'll get that package and they're just blown away. And then they'll post that on Instagram, and-

Andrew Hong: Yeah. There you go.

Leo Rooney: They'll wear the hat, they'll wear the shirt. And if they have kids, we'll send them kids shirts with our logo on it.

Andrew Hong: Beautiful, yeah.

Leo Rooney: And the kids love our logo. So, it has not been with like, how many listeners do we have? We don't really care. What we care about is connecting with these people. And then for our own staff to listen to it, actually. That's been a big inspiration. It's like, for them to kind of, because we're 40 people now. Like you said, it was... For you, probably Andrew is like, " Here, I can get a look into kind of the back office a little bit." Right?

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: And get to know these people behind this. Because we have been very focused on just creating that experience for the last eight years. We haven't really been in the spotlight at all. Very few people know about us.

Andrew Hong: I think you guys are doing an amazing job at that because, I've worked with probably four coaches, Kyle, Sheldon, Louis and one more, one of my fitness coaches. But, I think overall just in creating that experience and it's little things like we'll be on a group text together, right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: With some of the coaches. And they'll be like, " Hey Andrew, you came in to do fitness yesterday and your back wasn't moving very well. So, take it easy in the bay, when you're going to do some sessions." Right? Or, " You're over cranking your wrist. So just be careful or have someone come in, have Matt come in and take a look at it." Right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: "The next time you're in." Those tiny little communications that sort of happen with the customer, I call them micro communications, but they have such a huge impact on the overall customer experience. I think what you're trying to do is we need people to continue buying packages, right? Like if we did a good job with you, then they're going to continue to keep working with us to improve our game and I feel like those little tiny micro communications just feel like you don't need to actually be there to get the customer experience, if that makes sense.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. We try to pile on as much value as possible so that, the price seems like a joke. I mean, because we can add so much value outside of the session actually and what you're talking about is, we call it double or triple conversations is where the coach and trainer, and sometimes the therapist will talk about the client in front of the client. And those are the most powerful things. It could be two minutes and it's like, " Hey, Andrew has been struggling in his backswing. So we worked on this and this and that." And then Sheldon goes, " Okay, so we're going to work on backswing loading in the gym." And it's like, " Oh, I get it. I understand now why I need to train to improve faster in the bay." It's not like, this is golf and that's fitness, it's all connected.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: And so, that way I can move along faster in my development. So yeah, it's really cool to have all the team.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. These kind of concepts for all the listeners that are out there on your podcast, you typically do you stay away from these types of concepts or you try to focus more on the business life sort of parts of it, or it really just depends on the guests and where the conversation goes?

Leo Rooney: Yeah. That's a good question. I think Mac and I don't plan too much, in the podcast, we just kind of-

Andrew Hong: We have some questions that we like to touch on, but we'll just try to talk to them and it's kind of like the analogy, is just kind of playing a quick nine in the afternoon and talking about life business and golf. So, it's really different and we have a wide range of clients or guests, and that's probably a weakness of the podcast, but we don't really care. We've had some really unique characters on there. Like Ron del Barrio and Mark Werts, the founder of American Rag and Ron del Barrio is just the funniest golf pro, in the country.

Leo Rooney: And then we've had Reed Dickens who's the CEO of LAGP and was the Assistant Press Secretary under George W. Bush. It's all over the place, but that's just because, I mean, we talk to the people that we want to talk to and yeah, it's been great. It's been awesome. It's been really fun. That's really what we've been focusing on. It's like, as long... Because we did like 30 episodes in maybe 40 days or something and because right in the beginning of the pandemic, we're like, " Okay, well, we're going to keep going here." As long as we had fun, we were going to do it, but as soon as we felt like, " Oh, this is not fun." Then-

Andrew Hong: That's a lot of work to do it. Right?

Leo Rooney: It is a lot of work. Yeah. But yeah, it's been great.

Andrew Hong: Well, tell us a little bit about your production process, maybe. Because I think you're doing everything in- house. Right? And I guess for the other brands that are out there that might be considering doing a podcast in- house, what were some challenges that you had to kind of consider? I know you've got some, obviously, because you did a podcast before, you yourself had some audio editing chops, but what were some challenges that you faced in just getting it off the ground and just getting it launched?

Leo Rooney: Yeah. It has definitely changed a little bit since I was doing it in college. All the new tech and the different microphones are just... But I love that stuff. So it was easy to research and nowadays it's like, you go on YouTube and, you know you can find videos on exactly-

Andrew Hong: You can get an MBA on anything on YouTube. Right?

Leo Rooney: Exactly. Yeah. So, it was fairly quick. We've got some microphones. Honestly we just started in a garage band and then Cindy Oh, who's kind of running our corporate office here, she was an outstanding player at Cal Berkeley. Incredible. She's now doing all the editing. She uses to Descript and Hindenburg. And then we, Mac and I, we record locally and we just go on Zoom. It's been pretty easy honestly.

Andrew Hong: Good. Yeah.

Leo Rooney: And we've been trying to do the transcripts so that we can post that on our website. And yeah, so the production has been fairly easy. We've noticed that it's easier to record the podcast almost remotely, not in the same place.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. We found that too.

Leo Rooney: Which is kind of weird. Right? But yeah, it's been working really well to just be in two different spots, in the pandemic and yeah. With very little money in investment, the quality has been pretty decent most of the time.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. I would say so, yeah.

Leo Rooney: And then Zoom just records the guest on the other side and it's been, it's been working pretty well.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: Depending on the guest's Wi- Fi and-

Andrew Hong: Oh yeah. That's always the variable. Right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: That's always the variable. You never know. So you can always put a disclaimer on there. Right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Jared: So quick question, I know to you, it doesn't seem like it's been a lot of a process, but to a lot of other people that have never done a podcast, that seems like an extremely difficult process, especially if you've never had any background in working with audio, or just even hooking up a microphone, whether it's USB or to a sound card. So that to me, the time investment is obviously some kind of an investment. I know you said you've put very little money into it, but obviously time is the other currency that you're using there. How do you feel it's actually elevated the brand, pushing that as you know, I mean, you are making somewhat of an investment, but do you feel like it has elevated the brand?

Leo Rooney: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's been great for culture, internally you know, all the staff listens to most of the episodes, which is great. And some of the episodes are always... Like the last episode we posted was actually kind of an internal episode about recruiting. Our biggest challenge in our businesses recruiting and finding quality people. And so that's also one of the reasons why we have interviewed a couple of college coaches because we want the college coaches to listen to the podcasts so that they can then spread it to other college coaches. And then them knowing that, " Oh UGP is a great place to work for ex- college players. So my senior's graduating, I'll send them to UGP to work there." So, there's definitely a plan and a purpose and it kind of comes back to recruiting. And then that, obviously, the credibility and the kind of the authority, I guess you would say in the golf performance industry has elevated us tremendously. Because, these big names, they knew that we were around here on the West Coast. They didn't know who was behind it really, or they didn't really know what we were doing. So for them to understand like, " Oh, this is Mac and Leo." They could kind of understand like, " Oh, now I get it. This is why they have three locations and they have the biggest golf performance team in the world."

Jared: crosstalk there, yeah.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. You're not just another golf school in Southern California with a cool logo. Right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Jared: A guy walking on the golf course, talking lessons.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. Exactly.

Leo Rooney: Exactly. Yeah. So, that's a huge value and we haven't seen the end results of that yet. But just having... I'm texting with Chris Como now and you never know where that leads. It's just good to put ourselves on the map. And like I said before, we purposely haven't put ourselves on the map because we were so invested in creating a team and a culture that takes really, really hard work and a long time. And so people knew about us, but they didn't know kind of what went into creating a team of 40 working together. It's like-

Andrew Hong: Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah.

Leo Rooney: The reason why we don't have any competitors in our categories, because, you have to be crazy to do it.

Jared: Yeah. It's really hard to recreate. Yeah.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. I mean, it's-

Leo Rooney: It is.

Andrew Hong: The people element, there's a personality thing to it. Right? And everyone's got a different personality and to get everyone to align with a culture that is... We're a service business too, right? We service our clients, they pay us for our knowledge and our time, just like they pay you guys. Right? And there are so many variables, it's the personality of the person teaching. It's the personality of the person being instructed. Again, having worked with between four and six people now, there, there is a very consistent personality experience that I get with everybody. Right? Everyone's on the same page, have the same attitude, and the same kind of commitment to that level of customer service or customer experience. So I think you guys have done an awesome job at doing that. And I think no matter whether you're a golf school or an agency or Fortune 500 company, I think building culture is probably the most difficult thing at a company to do.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. For sure. I love it. I mean, I felt like I have my dream job to be in charge of that together with Mac. When you walk into UGP, it's like, " Oh man, this is awesome." And this looks cool and pretty simple and people... We have a lot of people that want to work for us. But, they don't necessarily know what goes into it. And so, the first day we have four new people starting next week, for example. And in our, we call it Q school, qualifying school, our onboarding training-

Andrew Hong: Yeah, I know.

Leo Rooney: They get feedback on their eye contact, their handshake, their body language.

Andrew Hong: Oh, nice. That's great.

Leo Rooney: Like everything. And so that's not very comfortable.

Andrew Hong: No.

Leo Rooney: The way you sit in the chair matters and the way you stand and where you're pointing it's like, we go so deep into it. So it's not like what you experienced, Andrew. It's not like a coincidence.

Andrew Hong: It's not an accident.

Leo Rooney: Yeah. It is like-

Andrew Hong: It's not an accident. Right? We worked really hard to do that.

Leo Rooney: So many hours went into just getting one person to give a good tour in the facility? We do hundreds of reps. So it's like... And the tone and the volume and how you speak and how you act, it's an art form and it takes a long time to train-

Andrew Hong: I swear, man. Only golfers would have that kind of meticulous attention to these tiny little details that matter. Because you know, I keep telling Jared, golf is a game of millimeters and inches and the details really matter.

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: Where your foot is, where your hand position is, if it's off by an inch or a millimeter or whatever, you can drastically change things. And I think your guys' attention to detail on these cultural things, is that probably a by- product of your games too, right? And the kind of attention that each of you guys-

Leo Rooney: Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. You rarely see a really good golfer with a dirty bag and dirty clubs.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. Sloppy scratch golfer. Right?

Leo Rooney: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: Right.

Leo Rooney: And that, we have shout private showers in our facilities and everything. And so we have a lot of towels and our culture is to clean, right? Everyone cleans. Nobody is above cleaning.

Andrew Hong: That's right.

Leo Rooney: And we have towel rolling championships, the one... It's a huge deal, like who rolls the best towel? Who rolls the tightest towel that feels great and that there was a lot of care and intention to roll that towel?

Andrew Hong: That's right.

Leo Rooney: Because that bleeds over to everything else. And so it's so weird because the best performers are also the best towel rollers, because it's all mindset. And so that's the culture it's just... And so that's why people will call us a cult and all this things. Now it's like just a compliment, but it's just because we care a lot. And we're very passionate about what we do. And so you can't just come in and think that you're going to work here if you don't want to put in a full effort.

Jared: That's how Apple got to trillion or whatever.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Jared: That's very similar-

Andrew Hong: That's right.

Jared: Similar culture.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: Yeah, it's clean. It got to be clean.

Jared: Yeah. So, jumping back to the podcast a little bit. What are your plans for the future of the podcast? I know you're kind of like in this free range of anything goes, but do you guys have any plans for it?

Leo Rooney: Yeah, that's a good question. I think we're just going to keep going. We have a big guest on Monday and it's just, I think we would love to get into maybe video eventually and do kind of a video set up where the guests actually there. There's a lot of people showing interest and wants to work with us. So as long as it doesn't disrupt our mission and vision, which is to continue to build locations and grow this team, Mac and I would love to do it. And so yeah, the plan is to continue as we have and then obviously we'll try and just get better and our marketing around it is still not amazing, but what's cool is the people that are in the industry know about it and they listen to it and they send us messages. And that's really what we care about. If we wanted to create a product that was more for the masses, it would sound and look very different. But yeah, so that's the plan and yeah, we're definitely open to video in the future and getting more kind of... More of a content strategy down. Yeah.

Jared: Nice. Yeah. I think one of the big mistakes that we see some brands think about podcasting, in the sense that they are like, " We need to touch everybody. This needs to be Joe Rogan." And what you just articulated there is exactly what it should be. It needs to be very niche. It needs to be to the audience that you want to talk to.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. You have your-

Jared: Whether you're trying to sell to them or not, you just need to get into that niche deeper to the audience that you want to talk to. So I think the way you're thinking about it right there is right on point.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. A good example Leo, is there's a marketing technology company we work with called HubSpot and we did a podcast with their VP of Marketing. They do a podcast for themselves. They're a public company, multi- billion dollar market cap, public company. And when their VP was talking about launching their podcast, she basically was saying that, " The first thing we always think about with the podcast, even outside of the content strategy is just who is the audience we're trying to reach?" Right? And for HubSpot at the time, they were trying to reach CMOs or Chief Marketing Officers, a very niche group of executives. Right? And for you guys, that's great that, you're trying to be known within the community for this podcast. It sounds like you're bringing the right guests on, within the right traction, so-

Jared: Right. The second part of that is you're touching those higher connections, obviously getting them, having them come on the podcast, but then they're going to share it with their higher connections and their community. So, the point of a podcast should be to build the community and I think you guys are approaching it, perfectly.

Leo Rooney: Yeah, it's cool. I got a message yesterday from someone that is a pretty niche guy, from GolfWRX.

Andrew Hong: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Leo Rooney: Him saying that he really... What a great job we've been doing with the podcast? That means so much more than 1000 people.

Andrew Hong: Yeah. Exactly.

Leo Rooney: Because I know that, that's going to create whatever that is going to create, whether that's him talking to other people in the industry or... It's way more impactful. And then the other effect that is kind of, I guess, forgotten is that me and Mac are learning from all these people.

Jared: Totally.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Jared: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: 100%.

Jared: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: I mean, Doc Rivers on coaching is gold.

Andrew Hong: Right.

Leo Rooney: I mean, how do you... And it's free for us. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, so we get... Selfishly we learn a lot from our guests and they love it and we love it. It's like a win- win. So whether it's talking about business, I mean, so many takeaways that we've had in these like 50 episodes that we've done. So it's yeah, I mean, the upside is tremendous, just from an educational standpoint as well.

Andrew Hong: Leo, it's been great to have you on the podcast and certainly more interesting to learn more aspects about UGP. And I think you guys are really on the cutting edge of bringing a lot more awareness to this game. I think we're at a crossroads now at this game in a way where... Because of COVID, in fact, it's gotten just so much more attention and part of it is just being in the right place at the right time. And it sounds like you've built the culture, you built the process, you've built the brand and now with a lot more attention being shed on this game, it sounds like you guys are in a really good place to grow. So congrats. So that's been really great to see what you guys have done.

Leo Rooney: I appreciate it. And I guess the only thing I would say, if anybody's listening that are thinking about starting a podcast, I think, and this might not be good advice. It's just kind of how we did it.

Jared: It's always good if it's like-

Leo Rooney: Just, I would recommend if you're really serious about it, actually get into it a little bit. Do your own research, understand all the parts to it, because I think sometimes it's like easy to just outsource everything.

Jared: Yeah.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: But I think that it's good to kind of get a little bit nerdy on the front- end, understand the microphones. I'm looking at your Shure microphones there, I'm like, " Oh, I wish I could have those microphones here." Because I know all about it because I researched it. And then editing the first couple of episodes yourself to understand, what is this medium and what's the format? And then once you got it, you know then you can start to outsource and find ways to make it more efficient. But I think it's important that you kind of get nerdy and get into it yourself, before just getting lazy.

Jared: Yeah. 100%.

Andrew Hong: Right. Yeah.

Jared: Yeah. I would agree 100%. All right. One last question. What are your top three podcasts that you're listening to right now?

Leo Rooney: Ooh, good question. We'll take out the Swedish ones. That's a great question. I have so many. I'm driving a lot, so I do a lot of audio books. I listened to Joe Rogan with certain guests. I'm a big Formula One fan, so I listen to a lot of F1 fan podcasts. I actually love Conan O'Brien's podcast.

Jared: Nice.

Andrew Hong: Oh yeah.

Leo Rooney: It's incredible.

Andrew Hong: Yeah.

Leo Rooney: I mean, he's even funnier, I think in that format than on TV, just hilarious.

Jared: He's hilarious-

Andrew Hong: Yeah. Exactly.

Leo Rooney: I mean, he's just crazy and he goes... I mean, he'll only bring... You can tell he only invites the guests that he really likes. And so the whole episode is just them laughing, which is really great. I liked StoryBrand by Donald Miller, building a StoryBrand is a book that we read a while back about using stories to kind of build your brand. There's a couple, How I Built This, I love. Coaching For Leaders is another one that I like. But yeah, those would be the three.

Jared: Nice.

Andrew Hong: Cool.

Jared: That's amazing.

Andrew Hong: Cool.

Jared: Thanks Leo, for being on. This has been amazing. Thanks for taking some time out of your day to join us and-

Leo Rooney: Of course. Thank you.

Jared: Yeah. We had a pleasure having you on.

Leo Rooney: Appreciate it guys.

Andrew Hong: Thanks Leo.

Jared: Thanks for joining us on this episode and thanks to Leo for being our guest. Also, a shout out goes to our production team who put this together. And if you're interested in anything related in the business realm or what it takes to run your own business, you should check out the latest podcast on the Tobe Agency Podcast Network called Entrepreneurship Sucks, hosted by Andrew Hong. Don't forget, you can check out all of our podcasts if you head on over to tobeagency. co. And if you liked this episode, don't forget to rate, review, subscribe, and tell a friend. We'll catch you on the next one.

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